yes, much of that is perfectly reasonable, and I wouldn't completely discount that that's basically Moffs reasoning (as much as I credit him with any reason, lol) but....
I'm tempted to point you at something I read on tumblr, as it's probably better phrased than what I can come up, but I'll try; even if we accept all of what you just said, it still doesn't negate the fact that until Moff got his hands on things we believed that the Doctor chose the lesser of two evils, that he had no choice, that there WAS a justification for his actions, all of which is completely ignored in TDoTD. There's not one mention of anything occurring anywhere other than on Gallifrey
But the fact is that if he didn't use The Moment, and simply removed Gallifrey itself and let the Daleks who were there destroy each other in the cross fire, that wouldn't have "fixed" anything if we accept previous information as canon. The war we've been told about repeatedly in earlier eps was not just on Gallifrey, it was raging across the universes, on multiple other worlds and throughout time. The Time Lords had unleashed all sorts of horrors into the universe to try to fight back, and simply taking Gallifrey away wouldn't have reversed any of that, those things would still be out there, the war would still be raging on other fronts.
Does that make sense or am I just rambling now? It is getting late, lol
No, you're not rambling and you make an excellent point, but I have one that (to me, at least) counters it. If we ignore that Moff's weakness is considering the world beyond his Doctor and the circle surrounding him, I'd like to look at the Universe at the time we see it through the eyes of the War Doctor.
Consider that, when he regenerated, the War Doctor was young-looking. Consider that, in 400 years, Eleven has aged only a handful of years. (Consider that, in the early days of the War, the Zygons' home planet was burned away. It is unlikely to be the only one that was destroyed that way.) So the War has raged, probably, for millenia. My feeling is that Gallifrey is the last battleground. Skaro may well already have been destroyed, which would bring every remaining Dalek to Gallifrey. This is the last day of the war, not because the Doctor says it is, but because this is the only place left fighting. Ending the war here ends it for good.
Now I grant you that Moff doesn't say any of this. (Surprise, surprise.) But if you are willing to accept this (which I need to in order to write this fic, apart from anything else *lol*) then it makes more sense. There is no option other than the Moment because there's nothing else to do and nowhere else to go. The War Doctor finally comes back to get the Moment (which he could have done immediately after his regeneration, rather than being involved in the War for so long) because it is now or never and he knows it.
For me, I've always hated the thought that the Doctor was responsible for the deaths of so many. I found it sat uncomfortably beside the idea of what and who the Doctor is. (I loved that he renamed himself The Warrior in Night of the Doctor because it made me realise I'm not the only one who felt that way.) The solution found by Eleven and used by all the Doctors saves part of that. Only part, I do admit, and only Gallifrey, but at least it's something.
(I'm happy if you leave rebuttal until you've had a sleep. *g*)
rebuttal will probably be short, and might not be wholely coherent, as I am getting tired and therefore not thinking quite as deeply as I might otherwise be, but....while what you say has merit, it still doesn't quite fit for me.
Firstly, if this was the final day(s), and the war had been raging for millennia, can we really be expected to believe that there were still two billion children alive on Gallifrey? I have trouble imagining that many children on the planet at the best of times, given the longevity of the species as a whole, but even less so if they've been waging such a massive war for so many years.
Gallifrey itself must have been attacked at some point. I can't see the Daleks waiting millennia to stage an attack on the one race who might be able to stop them in their tracks. It's not as though they're unfamiliar with the race and what it's capable of.
Plus this is Time Lords we're talking about, the ultimate in arrogance, and if they'd believed that Gallifrey itself was totally safe prior to that day, why bother to get into a fight with the Daleks at all if they hadn't been attacked directly? Surely they'd have simply stepped back and let the rest of the universe crumble around them until it was too late.
See, clearly one of my main problems is that as fast as I can rationalise away one plot inconsistency, it throws up another that puts me right back where I started, lol
See, for me, the fact that all the children were there just proves the arrogance of the High Council, who either never believed that the war would get that bad or (more likely IMHO) simply didn't care as long as they got what they wanted (the chance to ascend and become creatures of light, as per EoT). What does it matter if the bodies of the children are killed in the war when their minds (the only part of a person the Time Lords actually valued) would live on? And furthermore, supposing Gallifrey to be the last bastion of the war, where are they meant to send all those children? Those who are leading the final stages of a war often don't bother about the children (see, for instance, the dying stages of Nazi Germany) so I have no difficulty believing that the High Council would feel the same way.
Incidentally I don't have a problem with the number of children. There are about 2.2 billion children on Earth at any one time, and Gallifrey is so much larger than Earth (as seen in EoT) that it makes sense there would be so many more of them even this late in the war. Also, keep in mind that we see the children in Arcadia, which was supposed to be impenetrable, so perhaps they were taken to the places where they were supposed to be safe.
Your point about the Time Lords being attacked by the Daleks makes a lot of sense, but I can envisage a couple of instances where it might occur: 1) other races seek out the Time Lords' protection/sign a treaty, and so the High Council decides to go to war when the Daleks attack one of their allies (less likely, but possible) 2) the Daleks have wiped out so many other races that they have become convinced they are unbeatable and so turn on the Time Lords for their final grand victory (most likely IMHO) 3) the Time Lords repeat what they attempted with the Doctor and send someone to destroy the Daleks/Skaro and this is the Daleks getting their revenge. As for why the Daleks left it until this point, perhaps they had only now built up the numbers and strength they knew they would need.
Please keep going with this as I plan to put in some points about the War and this is making me plan it out really well! *g*
sorry, toothache drove me away from my PC for a day or so, I was too busy feeling sorry for myself to bother with anything else, lol
I'm also a little less than sober now I've finally got here so apologies before I start
1) I actually can't imagine the Time Lords bothering to sign treaties etc with other worlds, the impression we've always been given is that they deem "lesser races" as mostly unimportant, so I'd expect them just to shrug their shoulders and look the other way.
2) I'm pretty sure that when it comes to arrogance as to their "superiority" etc the Daleks are on a par with Gallifrey, in that they've always thought they were unbeatable, so I'm not sure that fits.
3) Now this I don't doubt for a moment. They might prefer to sit back and watch while the rest of the universe burns as long it doesn't affect them, but the minute it DID start affecting them I'm sure they'd try everything, including this.
1) *lol* I did say it was unlikely! But I dare say there are such things as mercenary races and the Time Lords might have hired them to fight the Daleks on their behalf, but it was conditional on the Time Lords joining the fray if they were defeated or something. (Hey, it's a long shot, but the idea amuses me.)
2) Why not though? Because, if you're arrogant, surely you would want your last victory to be your greatest! (You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion, but in my mind this is what happened, so it may be what is mentioned in my fic. Apologies.)
3) And yes, this would definitely have something to do with it as well, either as a follow-on to the second point or as a stand-alone event.
yeah, and I have to wait until January to get the two teeth that are causing all the problems removed under sedation unless I go private, which I can't afford, so...
Since i've completely lost the thread of this conversation after being away from it so much, were there any other points we were dissecting? lol
Oh, no, you poor thing! That sounds awful! I hope the pain isn't too bad and that January comes nice and quickly for you!
Well, you've given me lots of material to include in my story, so that's been lovely, thank you! And if you think of any other points in relation to DotD you would like to discuss, you know where to find me!
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(no subject)
I'm tempted to point you at something I read on tumblr, as it's probably better phrased than what I can come up, but I'll try; even if we accept all of what you just said, it still doesn't negate the fact that until Moff got his hands on things we believed that the Doctor chose the lesser of two evils, that he had no choice, that there WAS a justification for his actions, all of which is completely ignored in TDoTD. There's not one mention of anything occurring anywhere other than on Gallifrey
But the fact is that if he didn't use The Moment, and simply removed Gallifrey itself and let the Daleks who were there destroy each other in the cross fire, that wouldn't have "fixed" anything if we accept previous information as canon. The war we've been told about repeatedly in earlier eps was not just on Gallifrey, it was raging across the universes, on multiple other worlds and throughout time. The Time Lords had unleashed all sorts of horrors into the universe to try to fight back, and simply taking Gallifrey away wouldn't have reversed any of that, those things would still be out there, the war would still be raging on other fronts.
Does that make sense or am I just rambling now? It is getting late, lol
(no subject)
Consider that, when he regenerated, the War Doctor was young-looking. Consider that, in 400 years, Eleven has aged only a handful of years. (Consider that, in the early days of the War, the Zygons' home planet was burned away. It is unlikely to be the only one that was destroyed that way.) So the War has raged, probably, for millenia. My feeling is that Gallifrey is the last battleground. Skaro may well already have been destroyed, which would bring every remaining Dalek to Gallifrey. This is the last day of the war, not because the Doctor says it is, but because this is the only place left fighting. Ending the war here ends it for good.
Now I grant you that Moff doesn't say any of this. (Surprise, surprise.) But if you are willing to accept this (which I need to in order to write this fic, apart from anything else *lol*) then it makes more sense. There is no option other than the Moment because there's nothing else to do and nowhere else to go. The War Doctor finally comes back to get the Moment (which he could have done immediately after his regeneration, rather than being involved in the War for so long) because it is now or never and he knows it.
For me, I've always hated the thought that the Doctor was responsible for the deaths of so many. I found it sat uncomfortably beside the idea of what and who the Doctor is. (I loved that he renamed himself The Warrior in Night of the Doctor because it made me realise I'm not the only one who felt that way.) The solution found by Eleven and used by all the Doctors saves part of that. Only part, I do admit, and only Gallifrey, but at least it's something.
(I'm happy if you leave rebuttal until you've had a sleep. *g*)
(no subject)
Firstly, if this was the final day(s), and the war had been raging for millennia, can we really be expected to believe that there were still two billion children alive on Gallifrey? I have trouble imagining that many children on the planet at the best of times, given the longevity of the species as a whole, but even less so if they've been waging such a massive war for so many years.
Gallifrey itself must have been attacked at some point. I can't see the Daleks waiting millennia to stage an attack on the one race who might be able to stop them in their tracks. It's not as though they're unfamiliar with the race and what it's capable of.
Plus this is Time Lords we're talking about, the ultimate in arrogance, and if they'd believed that Gallifrey itself was totally safe prior to that day, why bother to get into a fight with the Daleks at all if they hadn't been attacked directly? Surely they'd have simply stepped back and let the rest of the universe crumble around them until it was too late.
See, clearly one of my main problems is that as fast as I can rationalise away one plot inconsistency, it throws up another that puts me right back where I started, lol
(no subject)
Incidentally I don't have a problem with the number of children. There are about 2.2 billion children on Earth at any one time, and Gallifrey is so much larger than Earth (as seen in EoT) that it makes sense there would be so many more of them even this late in the war. Also, keep in mind that we see the children in Arcadia, which was supposed to be impenetrable, so perhaps they were taken to the places where they were supposed to be safe.
Your point about the Time Lords being attacked by the Daleks makes a lot of sense, but I can envisage a couple of instances where it might occur:
1) other races seek out the Time Lords' protection/sign a treaty, and so the High Council decides to go to war when the Daleks attack one of their allies (less likely, but possible)
2) the Daleks have wiped out so many other races that they have become convinced they are unbeatable and so turn on the Time Lords for their final grand victory (most likely IMHO)
3) the Time Lords repeat what they attempted with the Doctor and send someone to destroy the Daleks/Skaro and this is the Daleks getting their revenge. As for why the Daleks left it until this point, perhaps they had only now built up the numbers and strength they knew they would need.
Please keep going with this as I plan to put in some points about the War and this is making me plan it out really well! *g*
(no subject)
I'm also a little less than sober now I've finally got here so apologies before I start
1) I actually can't imagine the Time Lords bothering to sign treaties etc with other worlds, the impression we've always been given is that they deem "lesser races" as mostly unimportant, so I'd expect them just to shrug their shoulders and look the other way.
2) I'm pretty sure that when it comes to arrogance as to their "superiority" etc the Daleks are on a par with Gallifrey, in that they've always thought they were unbeatable, so I'm not sure that fits.
3) Now this I don't doubt for a moment. They might prefer to sit back and watch while the rest of the universe burns as long it doesn't affect them, but the minute it DID start affecting them I'm sure they'd try everything, including this.
(no subject)
1) *lol* I did say it was unlikely! But I dare say there are such things as mercenary races and the Time Lords might have hired them to fight the Daleks on their behalf, but it was conditional on the Time Lords joining the fray if they were defeated or something. (Hey, it's a long shot, but the idea amuses me.)
2) Why not though? Because, if you're arrogant, surely you would want your last victory to be your greatest! (You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion, but in my mind this is what happened, so it may be what is mentioned in my fic. Apologies.)
3) And yes, this would definitely have something to do with it as well, either as a follow-on to the second point or as a stand-alone event.
(no subject)
Since i've completely lost the thread of this conversation after being away from it so much, were there any other points we were dissecting? lol
(no subject)
Well, you've given me lots of material to include in my story, so that's been lovely, thank you! And if you think of any other points in relation to DotD you would like to discuss, you know where to find me!
(no subject)
glad I could help, and if you think of anything else you want to "dissect" then feel free to PM me :)