Kissing controvery [The road less travelled...]

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I was watching Graham Norton last night (the episode that originally aired in the UK on May 27) and Alex Kingston was one of the guests. This is the interview segment that covered her role in Doctor Who:

The part that really interested me, however, was between 1:03 and 1:40. For those who don't want to watch, this is what was said:

GN: And how are the fans reacting now to you kissing the Doctor?
AK: Oh.
GN: Because that's a big deal.
AK: Oh, it is a big deal. [Picture of the kiss is shown] Ooh, God, there's a picture. Um, it is a big deal because, um, he hasn't, I don't think, kissed a woman before. I mean, he hasn't kissed a man either.
GN: No.
AK: But, you know, he's just coming into his, sort of, sexuality after 900 years.
[General laughter.]
Rob Lowe: He's a slow learner.
AK: He's a slow learner. Er, I think the fans have been okay, but, um, I think I have to be quite delicate about it.

Now, I'm willing to cut Alex a bit of slack here and admit that it's not necessary for guest stars (even ones who appear on multiple seasons) to have seen the entirety of a show with as much history as Doctor Who. I can willingly grant that she might have missed the Doctor's kissing history for those seasons of which she was not a part (which, because of the pretty, goes something like this, and please let me know if I've missed anyone):

Nyssa
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Grace

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Jack

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Rose twice
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Madame Pompadour
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Jackie

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Mickey

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Martha

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Joan

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Astrid

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Christina

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But I do have problems with her not spotting it in those seasons of which she was a part:

Jenny
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Donna

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Rose (again)
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And surely it wouldn't be too much of a stretch (would it?) to remember Amy and Eleven.
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Now maybe Eleven is that good a kisser that everything else is forgotten, or else the whole of history really was rewritten with the crack being closed, but my problem is that this show doesn't seem to pay homage to the past anymore. Instead it seems to want to plagiarise it and then pretend it never happened.

Personally I think it's incredibly disrespectful of anyone who now has a major role in the show to come out with silly, ignorant statements like that one. Perhaps I'm making too much out of it, but if she can't be bothered to learn something about what is always, after all, a very controversial subject when it happens then I'm afraid I don't think much of her professionalism and desire to be part of this show's legacy.

Mood::

horny

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There are 39 comments on this entry. (Reply.)

I think it's a bit harsh to put her down and basically accuse her of being unworthy to be a part the show, just for one little faux pas on a chat show. O_o

I watched classic Who whilst growing up, but haven't seen it since, so couldn't remember that chaste kiss between Five and Nyssa. So does that make me a bad fan?

Ten was kissing/being kissed by anything that moved, it almost became laughable that he saw so much lip action, but even though Alex was in the show with Ten, it was for two episodes; she's a busy lady, if she wasn't an avid Who fan before that, I'm sure she didn't have time to rewatch the entirety of the show to get a handle on the Doctor's sexuality...

If she was a one-time guest, I'd agree. The problem I have is that she is clearly meant to be a keystone of Who mythology. Now that it's become standard for the Doctor in his recent regenerations to kiss anyone who stands still around him for more than 10 minutes (although I'm constantly disappointed at the lack of Eleven/Rory smooches), and particularly considering how much emphasis she was placing on her belief that she knew all about 'the fans', I'm disappointed Alex is apparently ignorant of the furore that erupts every time the Doctor kisses anyone. That's what my post stemmed from.

(Admittedly I only put the Nyssa kiss in because it was such a sweet pic - and I didn't remember it either, only found it the reference on a website, so I can hardly call you a bad fan unless I say the same about myself. *g*)

Edited Date: 2011-06-12 05:46 am (UTC)

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What

the_willows said about Ten is so true! He didn't miss an opportunity for a kiss. :)

I think when you're an actor on a talk show, you kind of follow the host's lead. GN started the whole thing about it being a big deal...and I can't blame AK for following along. I also can't really blame an actor for not knowing much about the show apart from his or her lines (most actors usually aren't fans of the shows they're on, unlike David Tennant, for example. It's a paycheck for them.) If all she had to go on were Eleven's reactions to her kissing him, of course she'd think he didn't really kiss people on the show. This season we had the scene of River and Eleven's first kiss, too, so maybe that was influencing her view of the Doctor's sex life.

*lol* No, that he did not, although wasn't it the case that the women wanted it and had it as a requirement in their contracts (I'm sure Freema did, and I thought Kylie did too).

Oh, I don't blame her for following GN's lead, and I agree with him that it is a big deal, but my issue is that she's trying to show how familiar she is with the fans, but stumbles over the issue that is guaranteed to get the fans talking more than any other. It's the pretence I don't like. "Oh, yes, I know all about them and what they look like and how they communicate. Only, whoops, don't know about the core issues surrounding the show." It makes her look silly (and the way she said it also made the show and the main character look silly, which, tbh, is probably what upset me more than anything and resulted in the above little mini-rant.

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I was curious as to whether it was possible she meant it sarcastically but then I watched it and she gets flustered in an annoyingly heteronormative way so unfortunately sarcasm is out.

At which point I'm going to go back to my initial reaction, which was uncontrollable laughter. If the Doctor came into his sexuality it was during Ten's reign! Look at all the action the man got! Most of it initiated by someone else. People are just desperate to taste some of that.

To be fair she's a busy person and I don't expect her be up on the show, even if she's in it. It'd be nice, of course. But not necessary.

*lol* Yup, definitely not sarcasm. And yes, I picked up on that moment of her being flustered as well. Rather sad, because in many ways I'd hoped River was a female version of Jack, but I suspect Alex would be uncomfortable playing that.

I suppose it was too much to expect her to be up on the show, but since she's freely admitted to being a big fan of it in the past, I suppose I hoped she'd caught up on at least some elements of it if she was coming into being a major character in it now.

And yes, I have to admit I was laughing too...

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I was under the impression that being from the 51st century, as well as her comment about dating androids, meant she was a little bit of Jack's ilk, but meh. Whatever. Im not watching anyway, Im on my yacht on the River Denial. ;B (Haha, oh wow that works double talking about her.)

Has she said she's a fan in the past? Really? Watching Dead Ringers doesn't count. ;P

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Hmm, an Amy/River kiss would set a few cats among pigeons. And I watched all of S5 and the occasional S6 ep, but I'm tired of her character always knowing more than the Doctor. I could accept it better when she was with Ten because of their situation - him at the beginning and her at the end. But her knowledge doesn't lessen, which by logic it should. I suppose I'm uncomfortable with someone else being in the Doctor's 'place' as it almost means there's no need for the Doctor at all - and last time I checked, he was supposed to be the star of the show.

*lol* Yup, she's mentioned it several times, how much she adored it as a child and how great it is to be part of such an institution.

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I guess if you're not watching many S6 episodes, you don't know why Amy really can't plant one on River (or vice versa) D:

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I did see the last one, which was exactly the reason why I said it... ;-)

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Honestly? Alex Kingston is not up on Who-lore (and that's fine & dandy) just was a joke. SRSLY?

Sorry, are you saying that AK was joking or that I don't have the right to express my opinions and get upset about something that bothered me in my own LJ?

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I think she's taking a cue from how GN's lead... also I've heard of a lot of actresses who've joined shows later on who purposely haven't watched the early seasons because their characters don't know what's happened and they don't want it to influence how they act or respond to other characters. I'm not sure that's what she's done here since she says she's watched the show before, but I'm gonna judge her with the quality by which she portrays River Song (which I can't fault at this point), not what she says on a talk show. I can understand why you're upset, but it doesn't bother me personally.

(Also, I'm fairly new to the fandom, but I had no idea that controversy arises every time the Doctor kisses someone, so I get why she didn't know that...)

Fair enough. Thank you for your reasoned and logical arguments.

As for the controversy, it amuses me more than anything because it swings between fans of the old series who dislike the Doctor being anything but asexual and then those who like/dislike the person who is kissing or being kissed by the Doctor. It can be very amusing to watch if you stand to one side...

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I'm in both camps here. I prefer to see the Doctor as asexual and thus not romantically or in any other way drawn to those around him. On the other hand, it's amusing to see both the lengths they go to to put one in and also the reactions when it happens.

Yes, Eleven can be uncomfortable with the kissing, particularly watching it...

I can't agree with you about Ten only kissing Martha. He instigated the kisses with Joan and also the second one with Astrid. He definitely instigates the kisses (all three) with Grace. And while the first kiss with Rose is to draw the vortex out of her, he certainly begins that one as well. He also plants them on Mickey and Jenny, which shows to me that he sees kissing as very acceptable and a social norm.

And yes, we have rather gone over that ground, haven't we. *g*

Ooh! *runs off to look*

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That's okay, you don't have to agree with it. Goodness knows, it would be very boring if we all agreed on everything.

I don't blame you either for seeing Joan as a special case or for setting Ten apart from the others. Eight is definitely the 'victim' of the US industry, but it did open the door for the act of kissing to become more acceptable.

I love the idea of it gradually happening as the Doctor learns and I do agree with that. I'm sure it's not a social norm for Time Lords (although I do wonder if that has to do with the era in which the show was made. If it had come into being for the first time now, it would be interesting to consider whether Time Lords would see open affection as being acceptable as general human society does now).

And yes, it was one of the lovely things about CT - she acknowledged openly what she didn't know and willingly turned it into a joke against herself (her comments about thinking the Sontarans were operated by machinery instead of having humans inside them as a case in point). If AK had said something about 'the only kiss as far as I know' I would have been perfectly happy about that. It was her assumption that she was first and thus special that set my teeth on edge.

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Short comment from my phone, and I can expound in a reply later.

I assume she means romantic kisses, and even then he'd have to initiate them. I'm not sure about Grace, I'll admit, but 10/Rose, Jack, Jackie, Donna, Astrid, Christina, and Amy all kissed HIM; of those, two (Jackie and Donna, weren't snogging kisses, but relief or purposeful kisses. Mickey, Martha, Jenny, and others are all innocent kisses as well, friendly or familial or just the Doctor being stupid and not thinking about implications. Not every kiss is a "kiss me, you fool" type of thing, so I'd say she's at least not entirely wrong in what she's saying, but she's not entirely right either.

(I also can't watch the video from my phone, because it's embedded, so I'll get to that later.)

Yes, they kissed him, but then so does River, so it doesn't make that much different from the others, does it? It just seems a wee bit arrogant of her to assume she's the very first.

Looking forward to your longer comments!

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Sorry, love. Haven't been on the webs properly. Anyway, to business. Let's analyze those kisses, shall we?

Nyssa: I haven't seen this story, but it looks platonic to me. Do feel free to correct me, however.

Grace: I haven't seen this either, but I believe this is proper snogging, yes? So there's one snog. Still, who instigated it? (Just asking for clarification here.)

Jack: Jack kissed the Doctor because he thought he was going to die. The Doctor didn't kiss him back, so I'm not going to count this, at least by the standard by which we're judging here.

Nine/Rose: Erm, yeah. I never did like that kiss, because "You need a Doctor" was just too silly for my taste. You could argue this one either way, for the kiss being to save her life or for him using said life-saving as an excuse to snog her. Either way, he started it, and there's at least a good amount of evidence that could support it being a snogging, so I'll give it marks. Two snoggings, one definitely started by the Doctor.

Ten/Rose: Rose was possessed. Seriously now. It wasn't even HER kissing the Doctor, it was Cassandra, so I'm not going to count this. Perhaps half points, because he didn't NOT enjoy it, but it also wasn't a legit kiss between him and Rose to begin with, so not really.

Madame de Pompadour: He clearly enjoyed this. No, he didn't kiss her, but he really, REALLY liked it. Three clear snoggings, one of them brought on by the Doctor. (Also, you could likely argue there was more kissage between these two, but we're not counting off-screen nomming.)

Jackie: Best. Thing. Ever. But it was more of a "You didn't kill my daughter, I love you!" sort of thing. It clearly wasn't romantic, and the Doctor was a bit freaked by it. Still hilarious though. :)

Mickey: Forehead kiss. Not romantic. Heck, the Doctor didn't even LIKE him for a while (although by this point they were buds, yay). Not at all a romantic kiss although, as you've said in another comment, it does show that the Doctor sees kissing as some sort of social norm. But again, it's not a romantic kiss, so it's not relevant to this discussion.

Martha: The Doctor's just flipping stupid. Going on from the "kissing as a social norm" thing, he didn't mean this as romantic, but Martha took it as such. I'm counting it JUST because he did kiss her, and there were romantic implications to it, even if there weren't meant to be. That brings us to four snoggings, two of them now started by the Doctor. Only two of a clearly romantic nature, and one that was clearly a whoops.

Joan: He wasn't the Doctor, so it doesn't count, even though there was clear interest and he did instigate a kiss at some point. Still, not the Doctor, and thus not relevant.

Astrid: Do you think he fancied her? No, really, I'm interested to see your point of view. Either way, she kissed him, and he just....sort of stood there, so I’m not counting it.

Christina: You nasty girl, you put them out of order! :p Anyway, I think he was attracted to her, but he wouldn't have gone anywhere with it, because of....well, you know, brain rape and guilt and general angst. Again, she started it, and again, he sort of WTMCd the entire time.

Jenny: It's his daughter. Enough said. Like Mickey, it's clearly a platonic kiss.

Donna: Heh, heh, heh. Again, not of a romantic nature, and definitely not planned by the Doctor. (Actually, that gives me a hilarious idea you might like. Interested?)

Marvin/Rose: The question here isn't whether the kiss counts, but whether the Doctor counts. I'm going to keep it because they made such a point that he IS the Doctor, blah blah blah, so by that standard it's legit. Five snogs, two initiated by the Doctor, three of them romantic in nature.

Amy: There's no way he enjoyed that. Seriously, none. Even if it HAS been a while. ;)

The Lodger: Further examples of the social norm thing. In fact, they sort of lamp shade it there, because it's clearly played for comedy that he doesn't understand kissing and/or human society.

River: This is a whole other spiel, but I'm still hoping their relationship is not strictly romantic. Regardless of how it turns out, however, the Doctor was VERY confused by this (though also clearly delighted?) and he didn't kiss her, she kissed him (which we'll get to later).

To be continued....

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Okay, let's tally. Five snoggings the Doctor enjoyed, and one he will in the future. There's a badfic in there somewhere, but never mind. Five. Whoopdedoo.

In those five snoggings, we have no evidence (Eight possibly aside) of the Doctor ever having kissed someone in an exclusively romantic capacity. Being kissed, yes, and possibly enjoying it, yes, but never KISSING a woman, at least not as himself. Nine/Rose is the trouble here, as there's definitely an arguably romantic background to the whole thing, but the life-saving took precedence.

So where does that put us as far as the video? Yes, the actress should be fairly knowledgeable as far as canon, but her statement is technically accurate; the Doctor has never kissed anyone in THAT particular context. However, the flip side of that is....well, he didn't kiss her either.

Agree with Katherine: She (Alex Kingston) should know what's going on in a show she's rather a big part of at this point. River kissing the Doctor isn’t any bigger of a deal than Astrid doing the same, with the exception of River being a recurring character. So really, she shouldn’t make such a big deal of it (although it’s ALWAYS a big deal, so I get why it IS an alleged big deal).

Disagree with Katherine: She's got no reason to mention the kisses from seasons 4-6. NONE of them had a clear romantic context from his end, with the exception of Ten/Rose, which wasn't even started by the Doctor, at least not our Doctor. So as far as the seasons she's a part of go, her statement is accurate. The previous kisses aren’t relevant to River’s situation, and even then, she (River) has previously stated that Ten isn’t HER Doctor, so she might be speaking of just Eleven, which would make sense considering that Eleven (or higher) is clearly River’s Doctor, as opposed to any of the previous versions. (There’s also the possibility that she’s speaking from River’s standpoint, which would be that as far as she knows the Doctor HASN’T kissed anyone else. Still, either way, she’s mostly right in her assumption.)

As far as the show retconning all the stuff that's happened in previous seasons, I'm going to completely agree with you, yet also say that I think (to some extent) it's a good idea. There have been times where we NEEDED a reference to previous seasons, but haven't gotten it (the entire memory arc of season five being a prime example, not only in regards to Donna, but in regards to The Year that Never Was, to Bad Wolf Rose, and to the alternate histories that are never mentioned again, such as The Next Doctor's Power Ranger-esque giant Cybermen and Shakespeare and Dickens having near death experiences). At the same time, I'm glad to be rid of RTD's "my last companion left me/died/got lost/lost all her memories/blah blah blah" angst that we CONSTANTLY got in seasons 1-4, so it's a relief to not have constant mentions of previous companions. RTD took references from his own canon, whereas Moffat is taking multiple tiny references to old (pre-Nine) canon and running with them. I'm appreciating the change, as well as the older references, but I WOULD like to see mentions of Nine, Ten, and their companions where it's relevant.

*breathes*

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*lol* I'm having this mental image of you standing there reeling all of that off without a single pause for breath, getting more and more red in the face, and finally collapsing in a heap, panting for air and waving feebly for water. *rushes over a glass*

Lovely to see you again though.

So, to business...

I think, in general, you're quite right on most of the kisses. I included the Nyssa one because I hadn't seen it before and thought it was interesting how early any kind of affection was shown. I would argue your view of the Jack one a bit because the Doctor certainly didn't fight to get away from it (I also applauded the show for using it to demonstrate the Doctor's willingness to embrace all genders, but that's a whole other debate).

I threw the Jackie and Mickey ones in there because I was sure that, if I didn't, someone would point them out as working against my arguments. And yes, they were truly hilarious. As for Martha, and Donna, and Jenny, while it wasn't a romantic kiss in any of those cases, that wasn't the point I was making - that they all had to be lovey-dovey.

What I was saying was that kissing for all sorts of reasons has become a major plot point in the series. I can't blame DT's co-stars for insisting on a smooch in their contracts, and nor can I blame the show's creators for deciding to toss a cat in among the pigeons by including them. My point remains that it has become a big issue on the show and is something that major cast members should know about.

BTW, I changed the order with Donna because her kiss was part of the series of which AK was a part and thus I felt she might have been more likely to see those episodes than the specials where she didn't feature.

Given that, I can't agree that AK was right. Was there romantic kissing? Maybe, maybe not depending on your definition. But was there kissing, full-stop? Yes, there absolutely was. She was part of a season in which kissing happened (two, actually) and should have been aware of them (as you said).

My problem with AK was the way she was trying to be so knowledgable about the fans of the show, talking about how they do this and that, or turn up at filming and share photos all over the internet. You absolutely cannot believe you know all about something like that and then ignore one point that is (as this post has shown) guaranteed to stir up discussion and all sorts of differing viewpoints. No, the kisses weren't part of her storyline, but that doesn't excuse her ignoring them entirely and trying to pretend that she is the first and only when she very much isn't.

Which brings me neatly to the issue of retconning. As you point out, the neat closing of the crack in S5 should have had some link back to what that meant for the past (and it does make Eleven's comments in his visit to SJA interesting as he says he visited his past companions during his regeneration, a thing that actually may not have happened depending on when in that entire timeline his visit with Sarah Jane and Jo took place).

But should a show move on and recreate itself? Yes, as long as it doesn't forget where it came from. You can't ignore a past of sixty years as Moff seems to want to do. I loved the nod to the Odd in The Doctor's Wife (although when I read that it was written for Ten, it made a lot more sense), but I feel as if Moff thinks he paid his debt by all of those pictures at the end of TEH. And clearly for you as much as me, that's simply not enough.

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I typed so fast my fingers caught on fire. You mock my pain. :(

The reason I mentioned intent was that I think that's where Alex Kingston was coming from. Especially for Eleven, she's the first one who HAS kissed the Doctor (or at least the first one he hasn't protested to when she did it). I'm not saying it's an infallible statement, but I can see how she could make it and not be completely wrong, either.

Also, you just sort of made my point. EVERY kiss is a big deal, because it's such a flipping plot point of the show now, that the Doctor kisses every girl he spends more than twenty minutes with, and that, my dear, is why Alex Kingston is making such a statement in the first place. First kiss or not, it's still a big deal, which is why it gets hyped. (I'm not saying I like all the snogging hype, mind you, because the show doesn't need the random kissing to be awesome, but there you go.)

Moff isn't ignoring all of the past, just RTD's era. He's made multiple references to old canon. I'm not saying I wouldn't like more, mind you, but he IS trying, and I love that the references are just there, not highlighted or pointed out, just stuffed into the dialogue is if they belong there. He is, however, ignoring vast amounts of RTD's era of Who; I'm not sure if I'm glad to be done with those seasons or if I want him to make the obvious connections. :/

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*throws buckets of water over you to extinguish flames*

Hmm, I'd like to think AK thought that much about it, but I suspect you're giving her credit where none is due. Still I do see a difference in the types of kisses. Eleven's motives are interesting though, aren't they? Is he kissing her because he knows he HAS to, that they have (had) a future together and he has to play his role in that? I would find that awfully difficult!

And my feeling is that it's very wrong to pick and choose from something with a long history. You can't just ignore some things because you don't happen to like them or because it was done by your predecessor. It's like writing fanfiction. This is the universe in which you are working and you must work with what has gone before. You can't choose to make Eleven a whole different species just because you didn't like how RTD chose to show the Time Lords in EoT. It's alright not to be constantly throwing it in our faces, but if it would be better to mention it, then that should be done IMHO.

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Ahhhh, much better, thank you....

And I think you're being a tad harsh, love. (Just a tad, mind you.) From her perspective, or at least that of her character, she's right. She is the first person Eleven has kissed or been kissed by (and not been unhappy about it). I mean, you know, he didn't PLAN it, but still. As we've noted, kisses in Who are always The Big Deal in fandom, so I completely understand why she's making such a big fuss about it. Granted, her statement isn't completely accurate, but it would be like back in the day if Billie Piper had said she was the first companion to have a relationship with the Doctor. What sort of relationship? Measured by what standards? What about Sarah Jane, who rather sort of fancied him (and then got over it and became double the awesome)? What about Susan? That's a bloody strong relationship, albeit a platonic one.

The point I'm making here is that everyone is supposed to make their companion seem like the companion, not only because the popularity of their character dictates their next paycheck, but because they want to be part of the history of the show. You're rather acting as if she's making completely off the wall statements that have no validation, when really she's doing rather what she's supposed to do. And no, I don't think she's watched all of the show ever, but she shouldn't really have to; she's only involved with Eleven (even SHE said she didn't "know" Ten), so I hardly expect her to know the entire history of the show. Yes, she should know some stuff about it, but I believe she does, and is probably just trying to make her character seem more important. (In her case, we’ve already been slapped upside the head with said importance, so I don’t think she really needed to, but I’ll not fault her for it either. I wouldn’t have said the same things, but I’m not going to say she did something terrible.)

I definitely agree on this point. The problem is that RTD rather ruined the Time Lords for everyone else, so Moffat has to be a bit....weird about how he handles the race as a whole. The Doctor, however, hasn't changed (at least any more than he would after any other regeneration). Either way, I would like to see more acknowledgement of the fact that this is a continuation of the same show, rather than the Doctor regenerating and (for the most part) ignoring everything that's happened to him in the last however many years. I want Moffat to play with the Time Lords and do it well, but I’m just not sure how he can at this point. :/

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*offers you a towel to dry off*

If she'd said Eleven, I wouldn't have got upset, but I'm afraid I believe her to be talking about the whole history of her show from her reaction to the 'slow learner' comments. And she's very clearly talking about sexuality, which gives a much firmer base on which to measure exactly what she means. Hence my issues.

I don't have a problem with the idea that their companion is "the" companion and I believe your analogy to be apt one. My issue is the complete dismissal of the whole history when she's trying to claim such a high level of familiarity with it. If she'd come in and said "I don't know much about it yet, but from what I've seen..." I would have been able to accept her other remarks with much more comfort. It is the way she tries to fit in with the 'cool kids' and then trips and shows her knickers that I have the problem with. Don't look stupid and I won't think you are stupid.

As for the Time Lords, I feel that there are ways they could be improved (or, for that matter shown again), but really all RTD did was take them to the natural conclusion we have seen from them in the past. Once we saw what they were like, they were shown to be a manipulative, lying, two-faced race that controlled and exploited their members and those they could be superior over. I don't know how else RTD could have shown them considering what we had seen of them in the classic series. I would be interested to see whether Moff, if he chooses to ignore the RTD era entirely (which is where he seems to be going), will somehow draw them as great and positive beings. If so, he will upset even more people!

But yes, definitely lots more continuation! I suppose he's afraid he'll look back, but I'd respect him more if he had the courage to embrace the recent past rather than just rip it off as and when he chooses.

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I know what you mean, that she should perhaps have a passing knowledge of the show she's a significant charecter in. She doesn't need to have an encyclopedic knowledge, but I think knowing why the doctor kissing someone has been controversial in the past and the circumstances under which it's happened in the past - that's a fair request, I think.

It's a different quality of not knowing about the show to the one that Catherine had/didn't have. If you see what i mean.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm going for. And in all that is a certain amount of arrogance that "I'm the first and look how special I am". If she's meant just when he was Eleven, I would still have argued the point, but could have accepted it more. But for her to ignore everything else seems a bit much!

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Let's not forget Eleven and the two (four?) kisses in the Lodger, not to mention Marilyn in the Christmas Carol (off screen, but clearly happened).

I adored AK in ER, but it's taken me a while to warm up to River. I really can't believe she said that. Has her head been in a hole?

Ooh, I'd forgotten the Lodger kisses and of course there's no pics with Marilyn.

It's funny, I didn't like River much in the Library stories, but warmed to her in the Angel ones. However I feel like I've seen too much of her now and am getting quite sick of seeing her.

And yes, it does seem a bit like she's been in a hole...

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Now that i've actually had a chance to see this...i am surprised that after two years that she hasn't done any more research. I'm not sure i'm offended as a fan, but it certainly doesn't speak well of her professionally. I'm also surprised that she has time to do a play, though i guess now we know (SPOILERS) that the part could be recast. xD Wait, that's not really a spoiler, is it?

Yes, I think that was what bothered me, that she'd been on the show for that long and had apparently not bothered to check. It's the arrogance of 'I'm the first' that bothers me a bit.

And a regenerated River. Now THAT would set cats among pigeons in a big way...

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I do think if you're going to be a part of a show in such a big way, and particularly playing someone like River Song who is supposed to know a lot about the Doctor, she really should have watched most of the New Who episodes... I remember reading an interview with Suranne Jones, who played Idris in ONE episode, and she said that she had basically watched all of New Who in preparation. If I were spending the amount of time around the Who cast that Alex Kingston must do, I know I'd brush up to avoid making a faux pas! It's not like it's a chore :)

Yes, I definitely agree with that. Maybe actors don't feel as if they have to, but as you say, it stops you making silly comments or doing the wrong thing. I'd also have thought it would give you a lot more emotional range and experience to work with.

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Did my comment just post? Didn't realise I was logged out so if it did, it would have come up as anonymous...

It did indeed come up as anonymous, and I have those replied screened after some problem messages. It's there now!

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I seen this interview with Alex Kingston and it did annoy me a bit as well :/ she did seem to disregard everything that had happened before :/ I do think though she's probably just ignorant of canon tbh, and Doctor Who is just another job for her. David Tennant was a fan before he actually joined Doctor Who, so it was more like fufilling a dream for him, and Matt Smith became a fan and did his homework and fell in love with the show. Other cast members like Billie Piper did their homework too and admitted they weren't really familiar with the show though, but they embraced it despite their ignorance.

Alex Kingston doesn't seem to embrace it either, but that's her own choice, fair enough but she kind of made a silly comment or few there in relation to the whole controversy of kissing.

I think as Doctor Who became more modern with Paul McGann et al, and as Steven Moffat said, it became a bit more sexy so kissing became sort of acceptable. There was some thing about the First Doctor and a woman which everybody kicked off about way back, but I can't remember what it was about. However the Ninth Doctor was relaxed about his sexuality, being open and frank and there was that spark with Rose too, as well as other characters. The Tenth Doctor as well, kissing and being kissed by anything that moved and let's be honest, who could resist him anyways :P

The Eleventh Doctor sees his sexuality as a more dark thing though, as seen in Amy's Choice, it was expressed through the Dream Lord as something not quite right, I think in his strange attraction to Amy although that is now altered. There was an odd struggle going on with the whole Amy/Doctor/Rory thing that has been resolved now in Season 6. Everyone is in their right places now. However, I don't think he's asexual in the sense it means, I think because he is a Time Lord and immortal and all that jazz, he has to be careful who he falls for if he does, and keeps them at arm's length most of the time. I think this is best explained in when the Tenth Doctor can't tell Rose he loves her, since the whole human/Time Lord life-span thing gets in the way.

I think the Eleventh Doctor reacts to kissing etc in a sort of horror because he's essentially an old man and he's crotchety and maybe finds it embarassing for public displays of affection. But he displays a sort of playful attitude towards sexuality, like saying 'they fancied me' or taking his clothes off a lot or whatever - he's down with it!

I do think though he gives into his attraction to River because she is sort of his equal both mentally and physically, being part Time Lord and the moral issue that was prevailant with Rose sort of fades away because it's not really relavent anymore.

Yes, the total disregard of that much history is what bothered me too. I don't mind that AK isn't a fan, but to ignore quite major plot points that have existed on the season of which you are an active part seems like laziness. I don't ask her to understand every little detail (that's what the fans are for *g*) but I do ask her to have some idea of the big picture now that her character has gone from a one-off guest appearance to what seems like a major key figure in the whole mythology.

Frankly I see no harm in either Nine or Ten (or even Eleven for that matter) indulging in a little lip-locking. It's far more common now than it was on TV during the show's main run and would look almost comically old-fashioned without it. That said, we've seen no indication of any incarnation of the Doctor being willing to settle down exclusively with one sex or another, or even to have specific leanings or wants of a sexual nature. He's not like Jack, actively seeking out anything of a romantic or other nature, but he will take it if it's offered (which is kind of where I was going with the asexual comment, even if it may not be the standard definition of asexual).

I presume Eleven reacted to Amy kissing him because she was engaged to Rory, but I do wonder if he gave in to River because he knew he had to, since her knowledge of their lives together almost required it. Presuming that her knowing his name is because they are married or linked or there is some other close connection between them, I'd think he would almost assume it had to happen.

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I think the Doctor is pretty complex as a character to be honest, and that's what makes him so intriguing. One minute he's acting like an old maiden aunt about kissing and the next, he's like Don Juan in a bow tie/red Converse etc etc.

I agree that AK should have been more aware of a) what she was saying b) and what she is actually doing in her job. She just came across as a bit silly on the Graham Norton show :/

BTW, in relation to your Finding A Way Home fic, I've got up to the story where Donna realizes she is in love with the Doctor and tells the Human Doctor her conundrum. Really really really liking :) I think the two Doctors and Donna make up one of my fave trios of all time :)

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Oh, I agree 100% on the interestingness of complexity, and that only changes with every regeneration (quite apart from the moment-to-moment whiplash-inducing mood shifts).

Yes, she did come across as silly, didn't she? Almost as if she was desperately trying to impress Mummy and Daddy with this Wonderful Important New Job she has.

And I'm so glad you're enjoying it! I must admit to loving that trio...

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December