katherine_b: (DW - Donna and Eleven)
katherine_b ([personal profile] katherine_b) wrote2013-11-26 08:56 am
Entry tags:

Day of the Doctor

Well, folks, I watched it, but rather than give my review, I wanted to put the following question forward:

Should I rewrite the special, inserting Donna into it?

[identity profile] serenityslady.livejournal.com 2013-11-25 10:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, Katherine!!! I was just telling someone that Donna would have been a much better/more appropriate choice for the Conscience than Rose/The Bad Wolf. TBW did nothing but cause the Doctor grief, whereas Donna tried to prevent him from harming himself and others.

WRITE IT!!!!!

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-25 10:46 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I would have to have her as Ten's companion rather than as the Bad Wolf because the interaction of her, Ten, Eleven and War Doctor would be spectacular. And I'm also thinking of writing it from Ten/Donna's interchanging perspective (in the same way I did for Planet of the Dead and Waters of Mars), writing Bad Wolf out of the story altogether except for the moment the War Doctor mentions her.

Would that help? ;-)

[identity profile] serenityslady.livejournal.com 2013-11-25 10:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I think I could probably live with that! :DDDD

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 03:38 am (UTC)(link)
What would she do with the Ten/Elizabeth I situation, I wonder?

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:56 am (UTC)(link)
Probably laugh herself silly. *g*

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 12:16 pm (UTC)(link)
You're right... she would! Especially since I'm not totally sure the Doctor really intended to propose marriage... he's such a flirt, and now it came back to bite him!

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Which is lovely, because there's plenty of room for humour out of it!

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-11-27 03:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Indeed... I can't wait to see what you come up with! Poor Ten, I think he was actually squirming to get out of that kiss.

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-11-27 06:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, she really jumped on the chance, didn't she? Whatever was he thinking when he proposed marriage, even if he did think she was actually not Elizabeth.... That's a lousy way to try to find out!

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-28 12:34 am (UTC)(link)
Presumably he wasn't thinking!

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-12-03 04:34 pm (UTC)(link)
And Eleven wasn't judging!

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-03 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, no, definitely not! (I loved that interplay!)

[identity profile] starseeker32.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 03:43 am (UTC)(link)
I've been waiting for someone to post a Donna rewrite! I say go for it! I just got back from the theater, and I rewatched the episode trying to imagine Donna there instead. It can work! I wanted to yell "Pompeii!" when all three Doctors decided to share the burden of pushing the big red button. Don't know how I managed to bite my tongue, but I kept quiet. I was sitting next to a girl dressed as 1950s Rose, and I didn't want to upset her viewing experience (or cause a flame war in person).

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:58 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, I saw those parallels, too. In fact, there were other scenes that were equally paralleled, which I intend to highlight, too. I'll see what I can do!

[identity profile] dm12.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 12:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I was also thinking Pompeii (and I have a feeling that Ten, at least might have been, too).

Always with the big red button.....

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, big red buttons are very tempting...

[identity profile] tkel-paris.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
PLEASE DO!!!! I'm waiting for the rewrites to be posted! I know I'll write my own once I finally break down and watch. :)

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:59 am (UTC)(link)
Okay, I'll see what I can come up with. :-)

[identity profile] fansquee.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 10:41 am (UTC)(link)
Omg, I was just thinking this. And the answer is yes!!

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-26 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Consider it begun!
juliet316: Made for me by < lj user= alizarin-skies> as a result of bidding on her for the Support Stacie auction.  Not shareable (Doctor Who: DonnaNine)

*late response is late but...*

[personal profile] juliet316 2013-11-30 11:20 am (UTC)(link)
YES! I loved the special, but I was bitterly, bitterly disappointed there weren't more companions featured beyond Clara (Billie playing The Moment manifesting as a echo/memory of Bad Wolf is fine; keeps the ship wars to a minimum and I like the concept of a weapon that's developed a conscience). As somebody else said, when all three Doctors were contemplating using the big red button, there were indeed Pompeii parallels to it.

(Although disappointed with the lack of Companions, I'm actually a bit pissed off that Eccleston didn't even bother even agreeing to do a 60 second cameo at the end. Perhaps if only because we know, indeed, that he's probably telling the truth when he said he turned down the opportunity to appear and that sucks that he couldn't even bother to show up for a full regeneration sequence near the end)

Like I said, I loved the special, but I would have liked to have had more Companions in it(The Coal School tie - in was nice and kind of falls in line with my own ideas for Clara for a fic I need to get back to). Donna especially would have been perfect in it. So, go forth and rewrite! The world needs more Donna!

Re: *late response is late but...*

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-11-30 08:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, it's always a matter of finding a place for them that doesn't feel wrong or out-of-place, but I think there's a hole that definitely needed to be filled which she will do really well. There is certainly that parallel with Pompeii, and one or two similarities with points in S4 that deserve to be highlighted so I shall get to it and see what comes together.

Yes, I was hoping against hope that Chris would at least agree to be there for the regeneration scene. I think Moff did a great job with what he had, since those eyes were very recognisable, but it wasn't the same as seeing him appear at the end, even if he didn't say anything.

I agree that having the Coal School tie-in was lovely, as were the many other nods to the past, but the world always needs more Donna!

Ooh, your Smith and Noble icon!
juliet316: Made for me by < lj user= alizarin-skies> as a result of bidding on her for the Support Stacie auction.  Not shareable (Doctor Who: DonnaNine)

Re: *late response is late but...*

[personal profile] juliet316 2013-11-30 09:17 pm (UTC)(link)
There is certainly that parallel with Pompeii, and one or two similarities with points in S4 that deserve to be highlighted so I shall get to it and see what comes together.


Yay!

And no, that Hurt regeneration certainly wasn't the same without Eccleston actually being there, CGI be damned.

Yes, the world needs more Donna.

And yes, I know I need to get back to Smith and Noble. The muse was blocked for a long time and then stubbornly wanted to do a Clara centered multipart fic. I will get Smith and Noble out there one day, I swear.

I like your Eleven/Donna too.

Re: *late response is late but...*

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-01 02:13 am (UTC)(link)
I look forward to it!

(Anonymous) 2013-12-04 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
The interaction between Donna and Eleven should be interesting, too. I'm wondering what time period this would be, if she would be aware yet (from the end of "Stolen Earth") of the possibility of the Doctor regenerating, because he never seems to find the time to tell his companions about it until he suddenly bursts into flame. Donna, of all companions, would want to know what makes the Time Lord tick (ooh, bad one!). She might even go to his library and do her own research. If the TARDIS is inclined, she might even help, since I get the impression she likes Donna. She's well aware that he's alien, and she has an innate curiosity.

It would still be shocking when it happens, but some preparation would help ease the fear.

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-04 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
*lol* Yes, she would certainly want to know what makes Time Lords tick, but for narrative purposes I don't want too much exposition, which limits when I can set it.

In other words, we shall just have to see. *g*
develish1: (Seal)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-04 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm still playing catch up, but then I usually am, lol, so I'll just add my agreement to all the others, because someone definitely needs to re-write it, because my head canon is having great difficulty with it as it stands

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-04 09:28 pm (UTC)(link)
It's difficult because I do want to go with the same basic storyline, but perhaps there's a way to justify or explain it that will make it easier for you to accept. So (at the risk of opening a HUGE can of worms ;-) can you let me know your main objections so I can see which of them I can weave into the narrative?
develish1: (Hmmm - TenII)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-04 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, now you've started something, lol

Okay, my biggest issue is the same as several other peoples, from what I've read, in that I'm having the hardest time seeing how TDoTD and TEoT can possibly sit together and both be canon.

Mostly because if TEoT happens after TDoTD (which it must) then TEoT virtually negates the entire 50th ep and the whole idea of the Doctors choosing to try to save Gallifrey, since it shows that the Time Lords actually planned to destroy the universe themselves.

Ten even tells the Master this at one point, that his final reason for ending the Time War was that he needed to stop the Time Lords too because they'd gone mad. While my lack of caffeine right now means I can't recall exactly when that conversation took place, the point still stands, and given how they behaved in TEoT they're clearly still mad.

and I'm going to stop there before this turns into a very lengthy anti-Moffat rant, lol

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-04 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, this is going to be weird because I'm actually going to defend Moffat a bit here (I know, I know...) because I don't actually think those two things are completely incompatible.

Basically, it comes down to the difference between what the Doctor BELIEVES and what really happened.

It stems from a comment I saw on Doctor Who Rants, and to which I replied (although I've deleted my tweets since because I don't like being called a cunt on my own twitter) that suggested ALL Time Lords agreed heart and soul with Rassilon and were evil bastards. I give Moffat props because, by showing that the General was aware of what the High Council was planning and saying 'to hell with them' he showed that there were people who were willing to do anything that would save Gallifrey even if it meant acting against the wishes of the High Council.

Here's my theory: the Doctor, after his regeneration from the War Doctor, goes looking for Gallifrey but can't find it or the Daleks. His belief is that he activated the Moment and locked Gallifrey, the Daleks and the whole kit-and-caboodle (Star of Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare child, the Could-Have-Been-King with his Army of Meanwhiles and Never Weres etc) away. He can't get back in there because it's Time Locked (as Ten says in DotD). His behaviour during S1-7 is as a result of what he BELIEVED happened.

He doesn't know/doesn't remember that the Daleks, or at least those who were firing on Gallifrey, have been destroyed. So his statements to the Master reflect what he believes in his mind has to happen because he believes all he did was to shut everything away for a while and now it can come back and wreak havoc on Earth and the Universe. Yet, when Gallifrey appears in the sky above Earth, there are no crowds of Dalek ships around it.

So what is actually coming back in EoT? Gallifrey and a really, really pissed-off High Council who have been stuck living their very own Groundhog Day ever since the Doctors locked the planet away. No Daleks, most likely, although there is the problem that any who were already on the planet's surface, if they weren't destroyed, could still come back. Same goes for any of the above-mentioned enemies who might have survived. The biggest danger is Rassilon/the High Council, whose existence in EoT demonstrates that the General who encouraged the Doctors is most likely dead (or is perhaps the other figure behind Rassilon with his face hidden in an act of shame). Considering Rassilon has the power over life and death, that's a pretty terrifying threat to bring back.

So how does this work with the 50th? Because, as 11 says, the actions of the Doctor(s) is giving Gallifrey HOPE. Hope that the High Council may come to its senses and/or be defeated by an army that no longer has to fight Daleks and can focus on the greater evil of Rassilon. Yes, 11 knows that Gallifrey will come back in EoT, but he also knows that it won't be for long (not long enough to cause any damage, at least to Earth) and they will be locked away again. So by doing what they do, the Doctors are still keeping the Universe safe.

What do you think? I really do want to hear your thoughts on it all!
develish1: (Default)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-05 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
yes, much of that is perfectly reasonable, and I wouldn't completely discount that that's basically Moffs reasoning (as much as I credit him with any reason, lol) but....

I'm tempted to point you at something I read on tumblr, as it's probably better phrased than what I can come up, but I'll try; even if we accept all of what you just said, it still doesn't negate the fact that until Moff got his hands on things we believed that the Doctor chose the lesser of two evils, that he had no choice, that there WAS a justification for his actions, all of which is completely ignored in TDoTD. There's not one mention of anything occurring anywhere other than on Gallifrey

But the fact is that if he didn't use The Moment, and simply removed Gallifrey itself and let the Daleks who were there destroy each other in the cross fire, that wouldn't have "fixed" anything if we accept previous information as canon. The war we've been told about repeatedly in earlier eps was not just on Gallifrey, it was raging across the universes, on multiple other worlds and throughout time. The Time Lords had unleashed all sorts of horrors into the universe to try to fight back, and simply taking Gallifrey away wouldn't have reversed any of that, those things would still be out there, the war would still be raging on other fronts.

Does that make sense or am I just rambling now? It is getting late, lol

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-05 03:50 am (UTC)(link)
No, you're not rambling and you make an excellent point, but I have one that (to me, at least) counters it. If we ignore that Moff's weakness is considering the world beyond his Doctor and the circle surrounding him, I'd like to look at the Universe at the time we see it through the eyes of the War Doctor.

Consider that, when he regenerated, the War Doctor was young-looking. Consider that, in 400 years, Eleven has aged only a handful of years. (Consider that, in the early days of the War, the Zygons' home planet was burned away. It is unlikely to be the only one that was destroyed that way.) So the War has raged, probably, for millenia. My feeling is that Gallifrey is the last battleground. Skaro may well already have been destroyed, which would bring every remaining Dalek to Gallifrey. This is the last day of the war, not because the Doctor says it is, but because this is the only place left fighting. Ending the war here ends it for good.

Now I grant you that Moff doesn't say any of this. (Surprise, surprise.) But if you are willing to accept this (which I need to in order to write this fic, apart from anything else *lol*) then it makes more sense. There is no option other than the Moment because there's nothing else to do and nowhere else to go. The War Doctor finally comes back to get the Moment (which he could have done immediately after his regeneration, rather than being involved in the War for so long) because it is now or never and he knows it.

For me, I've always hated the thought that the Doctor was responsible for the deaths of so many. I found it sat uncomfortably beside the idea of what and who the Doctor is. (I loved that he renamed himself The Warrior in Night of the Doctor because it made me realise I'm not the only one who felt that way.) The solution found by Eleven and used by all the Doctors saves part of that. Only part, I do admit, and only Gallifrey, but at least it's something.

(I'm happy if you leave rebuttal until you've had a sleep. *g*)
develish1: (Default)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-05 04:50 am (UTC)(link)
rebuttal will probably be short, and might not be wholely coherent, as I am getting tired and therefore not thinking quite as deeply as I might otherwise be, but....while what you say has merit, it still doesn't quite fit for me.

Firstly, if this was the final day(s), and the war had been raging for millennia, can we really be expected to believe that there were still two billion children alive on Gallifrey? I have trouble imagining that many children on the planet at the best of times, given the longevity of the species as a whole, but even less so if they've been waging such a massive war for so many years.

Gallifrey itself must have been attacked at some point. I can't see the Daleks waiting millennia to stage an attack on the one race who might be able to stop them in their tracks. It's not as though they're unfamiliar with the race and what it's capable of.

Plus this is Time Lords we're talking about, the ultimate in arrogance, and if they'd believed that Gallifrey itself was totally safe prior to that day, why bother to get into a fight with the Daleks at all if they hadn't been attacked directly? Surely they'd have simply stepped back and let the rest of the universe crumble around them until it was too late.

See, clearly one of my main problems is that as fast as I can rationalise away one plot inconsistency, it throws up another that puts me right back where I started, lol

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-05 05:31 am (UTC)(link)
See, for me, the fact that all the children were there just proves the arrogance of the High Council, who either never believed that the war would get that bad or (more likely IMHO) simply didn't care as long as they got what they wanted (the chance to ascend and become creatures of light, as per EoT). What does it matter if the bodies of the children are killed in the war when their minds (the only part of a person the Time Lords actually valued) would live on? And furthermore, supposing Gallifrey to be the last bastion of the war, where are they meant to send all those children? Those who are leading the final stages of a war often don't bother about the children (see, for instance, the dying stages of Nazi Germany) so I have no difficulty believing that the High Council would feel the same way.

Incidentally I don't have a problem with the number of children. There are about 2.2 billion children on Earth at any one time, and Gallifrey is so much larger than Earth (as seen in EoT) that it makes sense there would be so many more of them even this late in the war. Also, keep in mind that we see the children in Arcadia, which was supposed to be impenetrable, so perhaps they were taken to the places where they were supposed to be safe.

Your point about the Time Lords being attacked by the Daleks makes a lot of sense, but I can envisage a couple of instances where it might occur:
1) other races seek out the Time Lords' protection/sign a treaty, and so the High Council decides to go to war when the Daleks attack one of their allies (less likely, but possible)
2) the Daleks have wiped out so many other races that they have become convinced they are unbeatable and so turn on the Time Lords for their final grand victory (most likely IMHO)
3) the Time Lords repeat what they attempted with the Doctor and send someone to destroy the Daleks/Skaro and this is the Daleks getting their revenge. As for why the Daleks left it until this point, perhaps they had only now built up the numbers and strength they knew they would need.

Please keep going with this as I plan to put in some points about the War and this is making me plan it out really well! *g*
develish1: (Default)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-07 02:00 am (UTC)(link)
sorry, toothache drove me away from my PC for a day or so, I was too busy feeling sorry for myself to bother with anything else, lol

I'm also a little less than sober now I've finally got here so apologies before I start

1) I actually can't imagine the Time Lords bothering to sign treaties etc with other worlds, the impression we've always been given is that they deem "lesser races" as mostly unimportant, so I'd expect them just to shrug their shoulders and look the other way.

2) I'm pretty sure that when it comes to arrogance as to their "superiority" etc the Daleks are on a par with Gallifrey, in that they've always thought they were unbeatable, so I'm not sure that fits.

3) Now this I don't doubt for a moment. They might prefer to sit back and watch while the rest of the universe burns as long it doesn't affect them, but the minute it DID start affecting them I'm sure they'd try everything, including this.

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-07 11:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Goodness, you ARE having a bad time, aren't you?

1) *lol* I did say it was unlikely! But I dare say there are such things as mercenary races and the Time Lords might have hired them to fight the Daleks on their behalf, but it was conditional on the Time Lords joining the fray if they were defeated or something. (Hey, it's a long shot, but the idea amuses me.)

2) Why not though? Because, if you're arrogant, surely you would want your last victory to be your greatest! (You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion, but in my mind this is what happened, so it may be what is mentioned in my fic. Apologies.)

3) And yes, this would definitely have something to do with it as well, either as a follow-on to the second point or as a stand-alone event.
develish1: (Default)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-08 03:33 pm (UTC)(link)
yeah, and I have to wait until January to get the two teeth that are causing all the problems removed under sedation unless I go private, which I can't afford, so...

Since i've completely lost the thread of this conversation after being away from it so much, were there any other points we were dissecting? lol

[identity profile] katherine-b.livejournal.com 2013-12-08 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, no, you poor thing! That sounds awful! I hope the pain isn't too bad and that January comes nice and quickly for you!

Well, you've given me lots of material to include in my story, so that's been lovely, thank you! And if you think of any other points in relation to DotD you would like to discuss, you know where to find me!
develish1: (Default)

[personal profile] develish1 2013-12-08 10:03 pm (UTC)(link)
thankfully most days it's not too bad, but now and then I get a bad day or two and well, you can imagine

glad I could help, and if you think of anything else you want to "dissect" then feel free to PM me :)